Hemangioma of the Liver

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Hemangioma of the Liver
« on: September 04, 2007, 08:33:25 AM » by jm3collum

Has anyone ever heard of Cavernous Hemangioma (also called Hepatic Hemangioma). I have had upper right quadrant pain for quite some time and figured it was in my liver. I went and had a sonogram done and this is what I have. It's basically a benign tumor. Curious if anyone has had experience with this or know anyone. Did they have it removed?

I do a castor oil pack for the pain and I have to tell you...it WORKS. But on my day off, I have pain the next day. I'm also taking milk thistle, dandelion and a bile supplement (I don't have my gall bladder) to help my liver function better.

I'm debating on whether or not to see the liver specialist to see what he suggests (we have insurance so his opinion would cost me only 25 dollars). I have an ND I'm working with but haven't heard from here yet. I also found a homeopathic medicine at www.hemantin.com but I have never heard of the ingredients.

Just curious if there are any other opinions or advice out there.

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Michelle

Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2007, 09:23:03 AM » by hodgy

Thank you so much for starting this topic! I too have this issue. Mine was an incidental finding on a CT scan about 6 yrs ago. The radiologist just said no big deal. Well, I had my gallbladder out about 14 mos ago due to RUQ pain. And, as I'm sure you can probably guess...I still have RUQ pain. Angry

But my concern is that it sometimes feels like my food can't move past this spot in my abdomen. It can be very painful. I also had SOME relief with the castor oil packs. I too take the supps. you're taking. I can't offer any suggestions to help, b/c I'm pretty much in the same boat. I have also wanted to consult a liver specialist because my pain is only getting worse, and I feel like it is affecting my digestion and absorption. Oh! I also was talking with a dentist once due to jaw/tooth pain and I told him that it almost felt like it was my liver pressure "pushing" up into my jaw. He said that was very likely. I told him about the hemangioma and he said that is how parasites present on ultrasound in the liver. I did a parasite cleanse and it did help a little, but I feel like if this is parasites they are probably encapsulated and can't be reached by the herbs.
I know I would LOVE to have this thing sucked out if possible. I'm extra curious about this hematin. I think I'll give it a try. I'm real close to desperate. Cheesy

Can't wait to hear others suggestions.

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Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2007, 09:56:11 AM » by jm3collum

I've done a little more research this morning. I have found that other recommended natural remedies are oil of oregano, this site has a great article and success story - same situation - hemangioma showing up after GB removal http://www.formula-as.ro/reviste_525__452__.html (look at number 2 treatment with wolf's claw), I also found this forum with a lot of good natural ideas http://www.curezone.com/forums/f.asp?f=748

My ND said to make sure to include a lot of whole grains such as quinoa and amaranth (I'm not sure what that is yet) and tons of juicing - especially beets. From what I can tell, there are ways to shrink them.....still waiting to see if anyone has. Looks like the best think to do though, is detox the liver.

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Michelle

Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2007, 06:17:46 PM » by hodgy

My only concern about shrinking these things is, since they're blood vessels, won't that shrink the other blood vessel in the body? I need all the circulation I can get! I did read some other stuff too and they talked about radioablation. That sounded pretty promising. Undecided

Anyway, I felt like this being on the board today may be some kind of divine intervention, so I made my appointment with a (supposedly) good doc today.

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Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2007, 08:42:55 PM » by Nickole

Bump!

(for my sis Kiss

)

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Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2007, 06:58:25 AM » by jm3collum

OK, so many people apparently have this and don't know it (they are usually asymptomatic). It is often times congenital and other times brought on by estrogen. I had a sonogram before my gall bladder was removed and they didn't seem to find it then (it usually shows up on routine screenings) so it seems it enlarged after the removal. I can't see that taking BC Pills more than 10 years ago would have caused this and the pain now. Anyway, my point being, if high estrogen levels tend to cause them to enlarge.....would taking a natural progesterone help balance that out and at least keep it stable?

Just thinking out loud.

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Michelle

Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2007, 10:06:09 AM » by hodgy

You asked the very same question I was wondering! Cheesy

I had ordered some progon B sublingual progesterone, only on the suspicion I am estrogen dominant. But after this topic, I didn't know wether to start it b/c of the hormones driving the growth of the hemangioma. But I do believe estrogen is the culprit too. So theoretically, one might be able to shrink it with progesterone? Huh

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Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2007, 12:57:11 PM » by jm3collum

Went to the Dr. today and didn't get too many answers about the hemangioma because my records weren't all there. However, he did tell me that the pain was probably NOT from the hemangioma and I shouldn't be worried about that. He said it was probably post cholecystectomy syndrome (PCS). Anyone heard of it? Huh

I guess it's basically still having symptoms of gall bladder problems even after you don't have one. For me, I didn't have any symptoms other than I could feel a lump in my side when my daughter laid on me. My gall bladder was completely full. Anyway, my thought is this. If I still have symptoms, even though my gb was full (with sandy stones- so full he couldn't get it out hardly), the problem was not the gall bladder in the first place. I really think it is my liver...which I have felt for a while.

The castor oil pack, supplements, and dietary changed I think are starting to help tremendously. I have even figured out how to drink a beet! YUCK! Still tastes like dirt though (but with apple it's not so bad). Anyway, I will go back in 2 weeks once my results are in to get final results.

I so wish I knew about all this before I had my gb removed but it's been a learning experience. Doing some mild forms of liver cleansing, I have lost almost 6 pounds and feel a ton better! I welcome any more input.

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Michelle

Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2007, 02:03:12 PM » by hodgy

What are you getting final results from? Did he do blood work or scans of some kind? I still have an appointment for the 21st of sept. I have noticed when I do the castor oil pack, that area does seem to feel better. Plus things seem to move along better. A friend also gave me some high priced detoxifier he didn't care for. It's called Metagenics Utlra Pure Plus. That really causes some nauseating detox symptoms, but I have more "movement" thru the area the next day. I just can't go to heavy on it b/c it has 19 carbs of brown rice syrup and that would not help my yeast overgrowth. Roll Eyes

I believe (now), my gb symptoms were actually my liver too. Oh well! Guess I'll go have some beets! Cheesy

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Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2007, 07:08:48 AM » by hodgy

Well, I went to the surgeon yesterday and he said he thinks(pretty sure) I have gastroparesis and that's causing the liver area pain. Anyway, he also said he would do an MRI of my liver just to make sure there's not something more going on there. Kinda excited about that, just b/c I'm curiouIF the hemangiomas are involved.

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Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2007, 07:21:19 PM » by jm3collum

Quote from: hodgy on September 25, 2007, 07:08:48 AM

That has nothing to do with the liver....it's totally a stomach related disease. Is your pain lower? Huh

I think I'd get a second on that one. I went back to the doctor today. My hemangioma is 2.2 cm so it's not very big and he is pretty convinced that isn't causing my pain. I am too. I am having a CT scan done next week to make sure there isn't any liver damage they missed that might be causing the pain. HOWEVER......again, I am absolutely positive that it is completely the result of toxic liver. I have been doing what my ND says...(I LOVE HER...and we are moving back to Texas...sniffle) milk thistle, I am now doing a yeast cleanse, iron free vitamin, castor oil pack, and I will be on my 3rd day of the coffee enema (I have to do 3 days in a row and then once a week for 3 weeks). I did not eat well this week and felt the pain creeping back up so I know it is food related and I have a long journey ahead. In answer to your previous question I did have a liver function panel done and a year ago it came up with some elevated enzymes which told them my liver was not functioning probably but I didn't know to ask what that was then....this time, my enzymes were normal so something has changed in the last year. I'm assuming that it's from starting to change my eating habits even before I became more strict now. Anyway, I am excited about feeling better and so I hope you get to the bottom of your problem. Keep posting. I don't get on much but eventually I make it. (Eventually I'm certain we will have to merge with liver cleanse Grin

...there is something to be said for that....I totally need to put a testimonial on there!)

« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 07:28:08 PM by jm3collum »
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Michelle

Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2007, 02:12:50 PM » by BJ_BOBBI_JO

A wise woman here on WTM on another thread referred me to this thread. TY Wink

Can I bog some of you down with questions? TY

here they go........

- do you ever feel your liver moving, twitching, pulsating or getting tingly?

-does it ever feel heavy?

-does it act up worse after you eat?

These are some things happening to me. I have been bugging ppl about it on this thread link below:

http://www.welltellme.com/discuss/index.php?topic=940.msg129239;topicseen#new

I call it a gallbladderLESS attack because I had my gall bladder out
7 1/2 years ago. The pain is mostly in the upper back leaning towards the right side under the right shoulder blade just like it was years ago with the gall bladder. The pain don't very often go in the front or side but sometimes on the right side.

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Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2008, 10:43:12 PM » by littlemama24

No one has posted here in awhile - I am interested in this hemangioma business. Why do they form? Where is there more info? What are they symptoms when they are symptomatic?

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Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2008, 02:08:43 PM » by daisey

If you had an ultarsound would this appear as a "spot" on your liver? Huh

There are times when I feel as though I have a rubber band around my upper abdomen and that no food can move past that point. Is this similar to what you are talking about?

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Be Still my soul, the Lord is on Thy Side

Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2008, 03:23:05 PM » by jm3collum

I haven't checked this thread in a while so sorry that some of you have asked questions. I'll try my best to answer with what I know. First, if you had a sonogram, yes it would show up as a spot. That's what I first had. The doctor told me that it was the hemangioma. All that is, is a benign collection of blood cells. They usually do not cause problems and don't have to be removed. They can get bigger and have cause for removal but it is rare - and because it is a collection of blood cells, they try not to to avoid excess bleeding. Although, I have read about a few people who did do some resectioning and it was successful. My doctor told me not to worry about the hemangioma at all.

He also told me that my pain wasn't coming from that. He said it was post-cholecystectomy syndrome. Which is basically having gall bladder symptoms after removal. Bobbi Jo that may be what you have. For that, he said there is nothing you can do. I did not have gall bladder issues before I had mine removed, I just felt a lump and it was because it was completely full of small sandy stones. It was as round and hard as an apple.

For me, what I feel is still kind of a lump. Especially if I lean on a counter or the bathtub while bathing the kids...it is very sensitive and I can feel my liver. Hemangioma would not cause this. Your liver can become inflamed because of many reasons and for me, I believe my discomfort and pain comes from a toxic liver. It does get worse after I eat sometimes. I take a bile supplement since I no longer have the gall bladder to reserve it for those times when the body needs it, but I really haven't been taking it much so I have more pain. I also took some other supplements that really helped and I had no pain for months. We moved back to Texas from VA recently and I have been so off track tha the pain is back. Soooo, I know that taking care of my liver, eating right and the supplements worked.

So, I guess to some it up....hemangioma should be asymptomatic. If there is pain, then it could be something else or it could be large. The pain from my problems does get worse when I eat but it is a dull constant pain in my upper right quadrant right at the rib line. I don't feel like food is stuck there or anything but what I eat does affect it (hamburger or pizza which I stay away from). I don't know why hemangioma forms - I did read that they are inherited mostly though. THey usually are only noticed on a routine exam for something else (like a sonogram). You can google hemangioma and read about them but there isn't anything to grand about them. Hope that helps. I know this is long.

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Michelle

Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2008, 10:47:49 PM » by daisey

When I was prego with my last dd 16 years ago I had an ultrasound and they found a 'spot' on my liver. They were actually checking the gallbladder which I had removed after dd was born. When they removed the gallbladder they checked the liver but couldn't find the 'spot'. The gal that did the ultrasound asked if I had ever taken BC pills which I had many years before and she said it was pretty common in people who had taken BP to have these spots. Guess I won't worry about it but I would sure like to figure out why I get that rubber band feeling right under my rib cage sometimes. Angry

Actually wish I had never had the gallbladder out!

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Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2008, 09:10:59 PM » by jm3collum

Quote from: daisey on January 15, 2008, 10:47:49 PM

Actually wish I had never had the gallbladder out!

Yah know, if I knew what I know now, I wouldn't have had mine taken out either. Especially since I really had no symptoms and have more pain now. I did forget though that when I was researching hemangioma....it did say they are very common in people who took birth control pills. The excess hormones can cause it. I'm thinking they can go away but haven't read any proof on that. Good luck with it all. If you don't have the spot anymore it could be the post syndrome like my doctor mentioned. Maybe try the castor oil pack (it works) to get your bile moving through.

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Michelle

Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2008, 09:13:48 AM » by littlemama24

My issue is that almost every time I eat and definately every time I eat something fatty I can feel my liver? or something in that region. I feel a hot searing squirting feeling. As best I can tell it must be bile, but why do I FEEL it? and where is it going? After my gallbladder was removed, they left a drainage tube in me for a week because the DR said the gallbladder had been so "sick" that he wanted to monitor the drainage to see if there were and signs of infection. All was well - no strange colors or smells in that nasty drainage bulb so he took it out and taped the hole over. I do not fully understand this part of the anatomy (must've been absent that day in college), but I do not understand why I FEEL this sensation and if I should be concerned. It is not excruciating - but neither were the "attacks". In fact, it really isn't much different feeling form those attacks, just maybe not as dramatic. Huh

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Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2008, 02:55:55 PM » by jm3collum

When you had your gall bladder removed, your bile duct stays in place. One thing they looked at for me was to see if I had a stone blocking the duct. I'm wondering if maybe that is what you have and so when your liver releases the bile, it's just backing up and not going anywhere. That could be causing yor pain. Just a possibility. It's the only thing I can think of. I don't get the squirty feeling except when I do the pack because it gets the bile moving. I wonder if that would help if you have a stone blockage? Might be worth a try. My ND had me do it once a day for 5 days and then every other day for 2 weeks. I think they can see if you have a stone in a sonogram. Might be worth just requesting one to be done. That's all I did...just to know. But that is when they found the hemangioma and then they did a cat scan to make sure that is what it was.

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Michelle

Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2008, 05:26:23 PM » by littlemama24

hmmm? interesting. Well, sonogram idea is out unless we're talking an emergency because we don't do health insurance. I will consider the packs though when not pg. I do not remember them ever saying anything about stones in the gallbladder, just kept saying "sick" gallbladder. I have the scope pics from when they took it out and it is very swollen and red. My reg. doc even scrubbed into the surgery (he was just going to pop in and check on me). He said he stayed because it was so gross and "cool" looking and he wanted to see what the surgeon was going to do. The surgeon later said it was so green and "sick" inside and that he'd never seen it quite like that. I found all this so strange considering I really wasn't in that much pain. Like I said - just a bit more intense feeling than what I regularly get now. Definately liveable. I have seen other people have gallstone attacks and they were reeling and writhing and wanting to throw up, etc. I don;t know if that indicates there weren't stones involved when I had it out or if my body is just weird. Huh

Thanks for the tips though!

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Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2008, 01:39:24 PM » by jm3collum

Definitely, after you have that baby give the pack a try. Maybe your bladder was sick from having toxic bile sitting in there. Again, could be a stone clogging the duct that wouldn't let it move out. Many times, doctors only look at the bladder but don't consider the common bile duct. Something had to cause your bladder to get sick. ANyway, the pack will get things flowing and I really think you'll feel some relief. It helps with so much. My ND even said it's great for cramping so I'm gonna try that next time I get them. Good luck with everything and let me know if it helps! I'd be curious to see if you get results too. I'm hooked.

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Michelle

Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2008, 05:35:25 PM » by Melissa67

I have done extensive research about an hemangioma and have concluded that it definetly is related to excess estrogen. It's whether or not you might have high estrogen or low progesterone. My hemangioma is now 4.5 cm. I have lots of pain over my liver (upper, right quadrent). Doctors have this tendancy to 'go by the book'. If it states that a person should not experience pain then that's what he tells all his patience. I have, however, read many articles that DO say that people can experience pain with this.

So if you have an hemangioma the best thing to do is to decrease your exposure to xenoestrogens that are found in cans, laundry detergent, plastic, make-up and a slew of other things. I do place hot castor oil packs, take milk thistle and drink LOTS of lemon water. While I have been able to control the pain, it will flair up for sure if I drink coffee or eat chocolate (amongst other triggers).

Hope this helps!

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Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2009, 05:11:31 PM » by littlemama24

I'm baaaacccck Cool

. Can't say I'm terribly surprised. I have recently begun attending an exercise class which has been so so great but this last week (Thursday) as I was exercising I felt a bit of pain in my back at the site of a lipoma that has been on the right side of my bak for some time. After sleeping that night I was lying in bed on my back the next morning and poking around on my back and right side where I was experiencing some discomfort I noticed another firm lump on my right side just under my rib cage; probably about an inch in diameter( Huh

). I can not palpate (or feel it with my fingers) if I stand or sit normally. I went and got liver books from the library and read that this is often how benign liver tumors present themselves - but that there are two other kinds than just hemangiomas and they all said that they are more prevalent in women in their childbearing years and esp. in women who've been on BC. Well, I have never been on BC but I am in my child bearing years and have had a few hormonal ups and downs. I also have had a lot of issues with my gallbladder before and now after I've had it removed.

Hubby says go to the doc. I am going to call tomorrow just to rule out something more serious.

Strangely - the day I noticed the lump I also began having an oddly timed v*g*nal discharge - black and tarry (kinda smelly...TMI Embarrassed

) and totally not at any kind of reasonable interval. I just finished a cycle not even a week before this started and now I am having ovary area discomfort and twinges too. Could it all be related or just a freak coincidence?

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Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2009, 05:10:45 PM » by littlemama24

Well, I chickened out of calling the doctor. Don't really know why. Undecided

I guess I just want to really try all I can before I get "them" involved. I am feeling a little bit better and am not quite able to palpate the lump under my ribs so perhaps it was a muscle after all and I was wrong??? I took psyllium and drank a lot of water and kombucha. I also upped the amount of capsulized thistle I was taking (wasn't very consistent before). The other issue I mentioned has changed - it is now nearing a more regular consistency so I guess there is some other hormonal issue going on and my cycle decided it'd go for a double-header. I need to read more about the estrogen/progesterone link to liver issues... I still think it is very likely that I have hepatic hemangioma or some other type of benign liver tumor... I just have so many of the indications. I will reconsider going to the doc if it worsens again in the near future. Any reasons why I need to consider it more serious now?

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Re: Hemangioma of the Liver
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2009, 08:41:30 AM » by littlemama24

I am updating for information's sake: I did finally go to the doctor for my R side pains because they were not letting up no matter what I did. The doc felt the same lump I did near my liver just under my R ribs. He sent me for an ultrasound and urinalysis as I was also having abdominal pain. I ended up with a UTI/kidney infection although they never caught that because they kept messing up my urinalysies - I just know I developed one over the course of the week that I was seeing him. Aside from that though - the ultrasound was completely clear. I read the results over his shoulder. Liver looks great...to my surprise NO HEMANGIOMA. I was sure I would have one because of all the symptoms matching up from the gallbladder/liver books I checked out. It also showed no residual stones or issues from my gallbladder removal. So, I got sent for a CT scan of my abdomen and pelvis yesterday because although it was good news to see the ultrasound was alright, we still can't seem to figure out what that lump is and why I get these pains. He thinks perhaps it's nerves from my back being pinched or possibly lipomas in there causing trouble. SO anyway, I thought I'd update on the Hemangioma thread that even if all symptoms point to hemangioma it just may not be that...

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