SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?

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SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« on: January 13, 2009, 11:41:20 PM » by montanamama

I am thinking about gardening, and have some questions about seeds that I hope someone can answer. How important is it to buy organic seeds? Is it good enough to plant heirloom seeds? I am wondering how much does the treated seed affect the eventual plant and produce? I bet somebody out there has done the research...

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2009, 01:03:18 PM » by CountyCork

Good questions! And I'd like input from others about their favorite seed catalogs that carry organic and heirloom seeds.

My personal guess is that seeds that are hybrid or GMO affect the food and it's nutritional content - altered it from the original way God made it.

This will be our first truly all organic and heirloom garden this summer. It's 25 below zero right now in MInnesota, but a girl can dream, can't she?

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2009, 01:37:39 PM » by wlwest

i've been saving some seeds for this spring too! Would they be considered ok if they are taken from food that wasn't organic? Like pumpkins, spaghetti squash, etc, from the store?

We are planning on planting alot this summer since we have more land. i can't wait! Not quite 25 below here in PA but its only about 9 right now!

wendy

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2009, 01:47:18 PM » by mykidsmom

Quote from: CountyCork on January 14, 2009, 01:03:18 PM

We buy our seeds from Seeds of Change in Oregon. They are heirloom and/or organic and not horribly priced. I think I usually pay about $2.50 a package depending on what it is.

patti

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2009, 02:49:50 PM » by Godismyjudge:)

I like to buy from this company in Iowa. We've had excellent results, they use very little if any chemicals, and it's family company, so I like supporting them. They sell all kinds of seeds, and poultry too. They have the old fashioned heirloom type, no hybrids. Order early.
http://www.sandhillpreservation.com/

If you want to save seeds from your garden, it's important to get the heirloom varieties, and the plants' offspring will then stay true to type.
For veggie seeds, I always try to buy organic. With flowers, I'm not so particular. Wink

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2009, 04:09:11 PM » by Kati*did

This thread is about heirloom seeds and gives some good suggestions as well as helpful links to Urban Exodus. http://www.welltellme.com/discuss/index.php/topic,5227.0.html Based on the suggestions, I ordered from Heirloom Acres who have great prices.

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2009, 10:34:56 PM » by montanamama

Thanks so much! I'm checking out both heirloom acres and sand hill preservation.

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2009, 08:32:29 AM » by lovingmomof2

Quote from: FunniDucki1 on January 14, 2009, 02:49:50 PM

If you want to save seeds from your garden, it's important to get the heirloom varieties, and the plants' offspring will then stay true to type.

So getting organic isn't enough? We need organic heirloom seeds in order to save the seeds and use them the following year?

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2009, 12:26:45 PM » by earthymama3

Fedco Seeds is great!!! They're so cheap, they carry some organic, lots of open pollinated, and many heirloom varieties, and they pledge to not knowingly carry GMO seeds. Some of their seed packets are as low as 70 cents each. They are in Maine, and have free shipping for orders of $30 or more. I need to learn more about seed saving.

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2009, 10:35:23 PM » by Meagan Visser

I get my seeds - organic - from Peaceful Valley Farms in CA. Last year my SIL and I both did SquareFood Gardens with NO luck. I grew everything from seed and she did storebought transplants. I also save seeds from any baby food I make for my son - organic veggies - so I'm hoping I can use them this year. He sure loves butternut and acorn squash!

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2009, 02:07:28 AM » by Missy

Quote from: Meagan Visser on January 16, 2009, 10:35:23 PM

Last year my SIL and I both did SquareFood Gardens with NO luck.

Oh no! Why didn't it work? I have been seriously considering doing a square foot garden this summer. I'd be interested to hear why you didn't like it. Thanks!

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2009, 12:33:41 PM » by seekingtruth

Quote from: Missy on January 17, 2009, 02:07:28 AM

Quote from: Meagan Visser on January 16, 2009, 10:35:23 PM

Last year my SIL and I both did SquareFood Gardens with NO luck.

Oh no! Why didn't it work? I have been seriously considering doing a square foot garden this summer. I'd be interested to hear why you didn't like it. Thanks!

I have done a few square foot gardens. They were expensive to put in and didn't produce all that well- although it could be operator error as well. I just got a book called Gardening whan it counts from the library which talks about a very different way of gardening. Looking at trying it this year. Here is a link http://www.amazon.com/Gardening-When-Counts-Growing-Mother/dp/086571553X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232213520&sr=8-1

I will try to give a better review after I read it. I am in the first chapter right now.

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2009, 04:31:43 PM » by Meagan Visser

Quote from: Missy on January 17, 2009, 02:07:28 AM

Quote from: Meagan Visser on January 16, 2009, 10:35:23 PM

Last year my SIL and I both did SquareFood Gardens with NO luck.

Oh no! Why didn't it work? I have been seriously considering doing a square foot garden this summer. I'd be interested to hear why you didn't like it. Thanks!

The only thing I can figure is the mixture for the soil. I went to squarefootgardening.com and they said to use 1/3 compost, 1/3 peat moss, and 1/3 vermiculite and that no soil (dirt) was needed. I did a 4 x 8 plot that was 8 - 10 in. deep, and did everything like they said. Things grew, but not big enough to yeild any food, and everything grew soooo S-L-O-W-L-Y!!! I just decided to do a regular garden this year hopefully with better luck. I'm sure some people are great at it, and just like anything else it's a trial and error thing that you get better at with time. I just don't want to waste the time and get nothing out of it. That's just me, but there are several people on here who do square foot gardens and have lots of luck with them. I think CountyCork does pretty well. You could ask how she does it!

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2009, 03:41:18 PM » by Mrs. B

I'm in the process of putting in seed orders for the spring and I'm having some questions regarding labelling....
I understand that organic doesn't mean non-gmo, but does Heirloom mean non-gmo?
I'm finding alot of things in my catalogs labelled Heirloom, but the phrase non-gmo is not included. I may just go with HiO's rareseeds, but it would be simpler to keep my order where it is....
Organic would mean no chemicals used, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was unaltered.....
Just trying to wrap my brain around it all.....
Please help....

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2009, 07:27:45 PM » by boysmama

Heirloom is supposed to mean old strains of seed that have been passed down. Whether all catalogs are honest in labeling ... Undecided

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2009, 09:40:56 AM » by miff aka Missi

Quote from: Mrs. B on January 22, 2009, 03:41:18 PM

I thought that organic does mean nonGMO. Because if you add anything to the seed, that would make it GM. And for something to be organic there is nothing added to it.

If you are talking about this site http://rareseeds.com/ Baker Creek Seeds, all seeds there are NOT genetically modified and they are heirloom. They do testing on their seeds to make sure they are not altered in any way. They have actually had a hard time finding non GMO corn seeds for this last catalog. I trust them to do the job they say they are doing. They really do care about not using and selling GMO seeds.

Missi

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2009, 11:06:19 AM » by Kati*did

Quote from: miff aka Missi on January 23, 2009, 09:40:56 AM

Quote from: Mrs. B on January 22, 2009, 03:41:18 PM

I thought that organic does mean nonGMO. Because if you add anything to the seed, that would make it GM. And for something to be organic there is nothing added to it.

I may be totally wrong here, but this is what I think I figured out when I was researching and trying to find out what to order. To my understanding, organic has a standard definition, and part of that is that the seeds are non-GMO. "Heirloom", on the other hand, does not have a standard definition...however, the one thing that is agreed on regarding heirloom is that they are non-GMO. So I think organic and heirloom are both non-GMO, but that the heirloom seeds may have been treated or had pesticides and stuff on them.

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2009, 08:33:13 PM » by Mrs. B

Thanks, you guys...
I had just been reading about certified organic foods not necessarily being non-gmo, but that was for foods and not seeds. I wasn't sure if it translated over to the seed industry as well.
I am mainly looking for non-gmo, but would prefer both. I know that alot of my seed catalogs have Heirloom and they have Organic, and some that are listed as Heirloom and Organic....
This is getting too complicated (and expensive)...

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2009, 09:34:40 PM » by boysmama

I think this is true for seed industry....alot of your heirloom and open pollinated seeds are going to be organic or almost so, but the company is not certified so they can't label as organic.

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2009, 05:12:08 PM » by hi_itsgwen

I'm working on an order for a seed company that I just found:
Southern Exposure Seed Exchange: http://www.southernexposure.com/index.html

They have all organic seeds, 99% non-hybrid, open pollenating, Non GMO
Awesome! The few hybrids that they offer are from customer request for specific varieties that are hard to find as organic elsewhere...like silver queen corn.

They specialize in southern and east coast seeds. I really enjoyed reading about the different varieties of veggies. They include any history that they have including how old/how far they can trace it back, which family donated the seeds...lots of neat info. The articles and FAQ's are especially helpful in figuring out the differences in non-gmo/organic/heirloom/hybrid, etc.

They have veggies, herbs, etc.
a chart to tell you the planting times for different veggies based on the region you live in.
and the catalog (free) has information on how to save your seeds from year to year...how far apart to plant them so the varieties won't cross pollinate, etc. Wink

Quote

I had just been reading about certified organic foods not necessarily being non-gmo, but that was for foods and not seeds. I wasn't sure if it translated over to the seed industry as well.

Yep...organic just means no chemicals, but they sure can grow frankenstien seeds without chemicals and label them organic. And they can take heirloom seeds, grow the parent plants with lots of sprays and chemical fertilizers, and then sell those seeds as heirloom (but non-organic). I'm trying to stick with the organic heirloom seeds, and just save them from year to year. We'll see how that goes.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 09:00:16 PM by hi_itsgwen »
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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2009, 11:34:48 AM » by DebAnn

Ok, Like Mrs. B, I too am

Quote

Just trying to wrap my brain around it all.....

and so I am wondering...if you buy heirloom seeds that have been or may have been treated, say for example popping corn seeds, and you plant them and raise them organically, then harvest those seeds to plant next year, would those new plants be pure and free of treatment b/c those seeds would not have been treated? Or would the "parents" pass the chemicals on to the "children"? if so, how many years (or is it even possable) would it be until the seeds are rid of the effects of the treatments?

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2009, 12:36:44 PM » by hi_itsgwen

Seeds are often treated with insecticide and fungicide. I would probably just order the non treated seeds if possible.

The post above yours has a link where I ordered my seeds, and they are mostly certifiied organic, ALL non-treated, and mostly heirloom varieities. They have lots of types of corn. The catalog is available for .pdf download, and it has lots more information.

Personally, I would feel that the small amount of chemicals on the outside of the seed would not be a problem for my family. You could always wash them well before you plant them. The insecticide and fungicide is there to give the seeds a higher rate of germination. Sprouting is the most suceptible time for the plants to succumb to diseases and insects (hence the treatments). To get around this, many gardeners recommend sprouting in a sterile mix (sand/vermiculite/peat moss) and then transplanting to a pot after the first sprout leaves come on.

If you raise the treated seeds in good organic soil and without chemicals, the final product is bound to be worlds better than the supermarket counterpart. So, since you're basically replanting the corn as a seed, my guess would be that the second year crop would be even healthier than the first year crop. I prefer the non-treated for my family, but I wouldn't worry about the seeds being treated either, as we have healthy immune systems/no allergies.

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2009, 12:42:13 PM » by hi_itsgwen

also...forgot to add this to my post. Heirloom and open pollenated seeds are the only ones that you'll have success with in saving and replanting seeds. I've been reading about this: Hybrid varieties will not reproduce according to their own characteristics, as they can pull from the full genetic markers of both parents, so there are thousands of genetic possibilties for hybrid second generation seeds.

That's why I am experimenting with heirloom seeds, which are open pollenated. You must separate varieties to be sure that the bumblebees don't mix the pollens and create hybrid seeds though. The Southern Exposure Seed Exchange catalog has a lot more info about this.

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2009, 12:58:23 PM » by DebAnn

Thanks, Gwen, that helps! I have so much still to read and study about this but I have got to get my seeds ordered this week! I had read your post mentioning Southern Exposure seeds but when I saw that you said this..

Quote

They specialize in southern and east coast seeds.

I decided that since I am not a southern or east coast dweller I will skip them, I realize that you weren't saying only southern and eastern coast dwellers can use these seeds this was just my strange way of trying to narrow things down and make my decision easier. I will go ahead and check them out-- especially knowing that you have been researching this stuff! Thanks again, I do apreciate it!

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2009, 04:26:10 PM » by hi_itsgwen

No problem! I'm just repeating stuff I've read about recently Wink

The Southern Exposure Seed Exchange site says:
"Although we emphasize varieties adapted to the Mid-Atlantic region, we serve gardeners throughout the United States and Canada."

They mention the region that the seeds come from in many of the descriptions.

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2009, 05:08:01 PM » by Mrs. B

Quote from: DebAnn on March 25, 2009, 11:34:48 AM

Ok, Like Mrs. B, I too am

Quote

Just trying to wrap my brain around it all.....

Just for the record, I went with the heirloom varieties, organic when possible. I personally felt that the non-GMO was the more important of the issues for my family.
From further research I came to the conclusion that there are different practices and if it was labelled or certified as such I went on the assumption that it wasn't. Some heirlooms are organic, others aren't, just as some non-heirlooms are organic and some aren't.
I don't know the science and research in this area as to how long the pesticides or chemicals would be present, but what Gwen said makes sense and I'm not too incredibly worried about it in the big scheme of things. I do believe it better to avoid when possible, but realize that it isn't always possible.
I also ordered many things from HeirloomAcres in Missouri and so far what I've planted has all come up (we're in the south near Gwen, and I'm doing trays indoors, just to let you know).

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2009, 06:19:23 PM » by steadygirl

I get my seeds from
Pinetree Garden Seeds- lots of heirloom and I believe untreated seeds with great prices! www.superseeds.com
Bountiful Gardens- lots of heirloom, open- pollinated and organis stuff and also good prices. www.bountifulgardens.org
Johnny's selected seeds is a place for seeds, too. www.johnnysselectedseeds.com

I try for open- pollinated and untreated seeds.

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2009, 06:49:47 PM » by Rene

I've just bought a bunch of seeds from Renee's Garden
http://www.reneesgarden.com/

Not all of her seeds are heirloom, but there are many veggies that are.

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2009, 01:42:02 PM » by wlwest

Well, I wished I would have read this before I saved and planted seeds this year! I had saved seed from, pumpkins, sunflowers, spaghetti squash, acorn squash. I started them indoors, to see if they would grow. Well, they all grew, so I thought it would be safe to plant them? Now these are from food that we ate from the grocery store, but I'm assuming they are probably hybrid? So does this mean all this stuff I planted may very well "grow" but it might not be what I planted??

I guess I might have to just buy some transplants and replace the seeds, and buy heirloom for next year?

I am just sooo shocked at this! Just something else to get people to have to spend more and more money every year to buy seeds. And to not be self sufficient! Ok, I guess I'm done venting. Roll Eyes

We planted so much yesterday in a big extra field dh plowed, and now I'm worried it was all for nothing. Sad

wendy

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Re: SEEDS: Organic? Heirloom? Treated?
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2009, 07:16:48 PM » by hi_itsgwen

Quote from: wlwest on May 17, 2009, 01:42:02 PM

If your seeds were from hybrid parents, they were cross pollinated from two different parent plants to get specific desirable characteristics. The second generation plants will not give reliable results, but will give you a very random mix of characteristics from the parent plants. So you probably will get an interesting variety in your crops this year

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