Whole Wheat Bread Problems

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Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« on: October 12, 2006, 09:17:18 AM » by Homemaker

I just bought some whole wheat flour from my grocery store. We live in Paraguay, and the whole wheat flour I bought is not like the whole wheat flour you would buy from Wal-Mart. It's really course, and looks like oatmeal. I have never ground my own wheat berries so I don't know what that would look like. Anyway, I tried to make some whole wheat bread in the bread machine twice and it never rises. It comes out looking like a brick. Any suggestions? I'm looking for a recipe that only uses whole wheat flour, not white and whole wheat. The recipe I used I found online...
Thanks

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2006, 09:22:32 AM » by lovinmy4

The density could be from the texture of the flour. Did you add gluten or any type of dough enhancer? Those helped me alot when I first started baking bread. Depending on what type of grinder is available, fresh ground flour usually looks very similar to regular flour, except you can see the bran in it. Did you check to see if your yeast is still good? Put 1 teaspoon in some warm water and wait 5 minutes; if it bubbles and smells yeasty it is still good. Can't think of anything else to try at the moment....hope that helps.

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2006, 09:36:01 AM » by lovinmy4

Just remembered another thing....bread machines aren't the best for kneading whole wheat dough...could be that the gluten wasn't developed enough for a good rise. Other than to tell you to go get a large stand mixer I don't know how to help if that is the problem.

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2006, 09:55:56 AM » by ShabbyChic

I think I'd put the flour into a food processor and try to turn it into powder. I'd also add 1 tablespoon of gluten for each cup of wheat flour. Are you at a higher altitude? Could this affect baking time or rising time?

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2006, 10:03:21 AM » by Pennie

I just started grinding my own flour and the recipe I use says use safflower oil but I don't buy that so I was using butter. Last time I totally forgot it and it was okay but pretty dry so this time I used olive oil instead and I read where someone else lets theirs rise 3 times and I did yesterday and the bread turned out so much better. I dont' know if it was the extra time or the oil instead of butter. I also tried not to add extra flour. I hate sticky but that is how this dough is unless I add a bunch of extra flour so I just added oil. This is called no knead wheat bread. It says just to beat it with a wooden spoon, however I can't keep from kneading and until I find a better recipe that seems to be working fine.

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2006, 10:34:45 PM » by AgainstTheGrain

I'v been baking with freshly milled flour for over 3 years and it is a completely different animal to work with and doesn't really substitute in recipes Undecided

There is only 1 bread machine I know of that can handle the fiber and that's a Zojirushi. There's also only about 3 mixers that are strong enough to kneed it. Dough Enhancer and Vital Wheat Gluten are essential to making it rise! Wink

Thought I'd also post this too since my recipe is quite different from most...a lot less wheat but more yeast so if you have yeast issues it may not work for you. I also make/sell Red Bread, 7-Grain Bread, Rye Bread, Cinn Rolls, and Pancake Mix. Cheesy

Happy Baking!! Grin

V's Honey Wheat Bread
½ C Olive Oil
½ C Honey
3 C Hot Water
7½-8 C Hard White Flour
½ C Oat Flour
1/3 C SAF Yeast
¼ C Vital Wheat Gluten
2 T Dough Enhancer
2 T Salt

Pre-measure yeast, gluten, enhancer and salt in small cup. In a 4 C measuring cup pour oil and honey. Fill with enough hot tap water to make 4 cups liquid. Mix well and pour into Bosh bowl. Add 4 C hard white flour and pour the pre-measured items on top. Mix 1 minute and let sponge 10-20 minutes. Add hard white flour and oat flour.(My 1st cup I'll add the ½ C Oat Flour with ½ C Wheat then add 3 more cups. If it needs the other ½ C I'll add it, but usually it doesn't) Mix and knead 8-10 minutes.

Spray counter with oil. Knead a few times to form a nice ball. Divide in 4 and let proof, covered, 10-20 minutes. Punch down and slam on the counter 7 times to remove air then roll/shape into 10" loaf pans. Let rise 20-30 minutes. Bake 350° for 20 minutes.

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Vanessa in Iowa
Mom to 5 boys and 1 baby girl ages Newborn to 12

Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2006, 12:13:36 PM » by KristenA

AgainstTheGrain, Thanks for the recipe and the heads-up about home-ground flour. We added vital wheat gluten to our soft wheat bread and it made a world of difference!

Now that I am baking our bread I have a few questions.....

How do you keep it soft (for more than 6 hours)?
How do you store it over night? I have been putting a kitchen cloth over it. I can't tell if it helps.

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2006, 12:46:18 PM » by smileyface

I put my bread in ziploc baggies. It stays soft for days. I just wait for it to cool completely or it will get soggy.

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2006, 12:50:31 PM » by mexmarr

Quote from: KristenA on December 04, 2006, 12:13:36 PM

How do you keep it soft (for more than 6 hours)?
How do you store it over night? I have been putting a kitchen cloth over it. I can't tell if it helps.

I make 4-6 loaves at a time. Once it cools, I put it in a plastic baggy. You could also use zip lock, saren wrap or old bread bags (be sure to wash and dry). My bread doesn't dry out that way. I don't refrigerate it, because that is said to dry it out. I have sometimes left bread in a kitchen towel overnight, just because I didn't put it away after supper. (sometimes I serve it wrapped in a towel to keep it warm). It is always dry and too hard when I do that. We just use it for bread crumbs after that.

If I put milk or eggs in my bread, I will freeze half of it right after it cools. That way it won't mold before it goes bad. That bread will last me 2-3 out of the fridge when it is hot, and longer when cold. To use my frozen bread, I just take it out of the freezer the night before and leave it on the counter. It is good by morning. It is not quite as good as fresh, but much better than refrigerated.

A new thing that I just discovered is freezing the dough, already made into loaves. When I make 4 loaves, I can freeze two loaves of dough. When I eat the first 2 loaves, I take the frozen blocks of dough and put them in the pan to rise (about 6 hours!) When I bake it is is just as good as fresh!

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2006, 10:14:50 PM » by Christal

Quote from: Homemaker on October 12, 2006, 09:17:18 AM

It's really course, and looks like oatmeal. I have never ground my own wheat berries so I don't know what that would look like.

When I started grinding my flour, I would only grind it once in my Champion Juicer. I got bricks for bread. Then I started running it through the grinder twice and the flour was very fine, finer than Wal-mart whole wheat flour. Now I have wonderful bread. I also have started using white wheat instead of red wheat berries. It is just a different variety of plant. I can use my flour for any recipe now that calls for all purpose flour where before I had to use 1/2 wheat and 1/2 white.

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2007, 06:23:50 PM » by savedbygrace

Quote from: lovinmy4 on October 12, 2006, 09:36:01 AM

Just remembered another thing....bread machines aren't the best for kneading whole wheat dough...Other than to tell you to go get a large stand mixer I don't know how to help if that is the problem.

I bought some wheat berries and ground them in my kitchen aid mixer. It looks a lot like the store bought stuff. I have never used this kind of wheat flour before so I have a couple of questions... How would I kneed it if I dont have a stand mixer. Why cant I use my hands? Would it just take forever?

Quote from: AgainstTheGrain on October 12, 2006, 10:34:45 PM

I'v been baking with freshly milled flour for over 3 years and it is a completely different animal to work with and doesn't really substitute in recipes Undecided

Happy Baking!! Grin

V's Honey Wheat Bread
½ C Olive Oil
½ C Honey
3 C Hot Water
7½-8 C Hard White Flour
½ C Oat Flour
1/3 C SAF Yeast
¼ C Vital Wheat Gluten
2 T Dough Enhancer
2 T Salt

What are: SAF yeast, Hard white flour (and can I substitute?), oat flour (can I just grind some oats?) Vital Wheat Gluten, & Dough Enhancer. Where do I get these items?

I dont have a stand up mixer. All I have is a bread machine (sunbeam), hand held mixer and a kitchen aid blender. I don't want to buy any equipment. Can I still make bread?

Also, (AgainstTheGrain) would you be willing to post your 7-grain bread recipe?

« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 06:27:46 PM by savedbygrace »
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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2007, 12:55:16 AM » by AgainstTheGrain

The first thing I want to tell you is you can not treat freshly milled flour like any other store bought flour Undecided

- even store bought whole wheat. It is a completely different animal since it has "everything" in it. Wink

I have never kneeded by hand so I can't say how long it's going to take - sounds tiring though Tongue

. As far as bread machines, my understanding is that there's only 1 that could handle freshly milled flours and that's the Zojirushi model. The fiber in this flour will burn out anything that's not designed for freshly milled flours.

A wonderful website to learn from is BreadBeckers.com I literally printed and read every article on that site when I started. GrainsOfTruth.com is also good. CountryBaker.com has a great Baking Basics section and includes hand kneeding! Cheesy

SAF Yeast - is a brand name of a very good yeast that isn't "yeasty" smelling and is very stable and long lasting. I think you can get it at Sam's Club - I get mine through a co-op.

Hard White Wheat refers to the type of wheat berry used - there's a LOT of different ones including Red Wheat, Soft White Wheat, Spelt, Kamut, etc.

Vital Wheat Gluten (available in the baking section) - is extra gluten added to help the bread when kneeding - without it there's too much fiber in the wheat to get a good rise.

Dough Enhancer - same reason as the gluten - it's sorta hard to find. Be careful that you don't get one that's vital wheat gluten + vitamin C. I use to get mine from ShellysBreads.com but have since found a local gal (a distributor for ShellysBreads) that makes bread and sells wheat so I get it from her.

Hope that's helpful!

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Vanessa in Iowa
Mom to 5 boys and 1 baby girl ages Newborn to 12

Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2007, 11:35:35 AM » by diaperswyper

I've been making the yeasted buttermilk bread from the NT book and lately it'll rise beautifully but when i start baking it, it falls in the middle. Any idea's why? I have used kefir some in place of the buttermilk, would that make a difference?

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2007, 06:59:41 PM » by hsink

Yeah, my dh just ordered me a Nutrimill and Bosch mixer. They should be here in a couple of days (it will be a couple of weeks til I have my wheat from the co-op) and I am trying to get as much info as possible on this ww bread thing. My mom taught me to bake when I was younger and I bake often for our family and friends. That being said I have never done the fresh milled flour "thing" and I know that I have much to learn.

Quote

Vital Wheat Gluten (available in the baking section) - is extra gluten added to help the bread when kneeding - without it there's too much fiber in the wheat to get a good rise.

Dough Enhancer - same reason as the gluten - it's sorta hard to find.

Could I add more gluten and skip the dough enhancer? I am not totally excited about all the ingredients in the dough enhancer (soy lecithin) What do you think? What kinds of things did you try before deciding on this recipe? Why did you choose this combo of ingredients over other things that you tried?

Also, I saw a recipe that called for whey powder and vit C crystals...are those ingredients doing the same thing as the dough enhancer?

Okay so I think that is all for now...any other advice welcomed!!!!!!

Holly

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2007, 08:43:16 PM » by westernmama

Quote from: hsink on April 17, 2007, 06:59:41 PM

Yeah, my dh just ordered me a Nutrimill and Bosch mixer. They should be here in a couple of days (it will be a couple of weeks til I have my wheat from the co-op) . . . Could I add more gluten and skip the dough enhancer? I am not totally excited about all the ingredients in the dough enhancer (soy lecithin) What do you think? What kinds of things did you try before deciding on this recipe? Why did you choose this combo of ingredients over other things that you tried?
Holly

That's great, Holly! I envy you and your nutrimill. Tongue

I just have a grain mill attachment for my Champion juicer. It works okay, although rather slow, loud, and gets hot. But, it was what we could afford at the time. To grind 10 cups of wheat takes about 15-20 minutes. I'm sure you'll be delighted with your nutrimill. I've heard good things about them. I personally don't know if I'd recommend using the wheat gluten. I put it in simply because I need to use it up, but don't know if I can tell a difference. You will need to use just a tad more flour if you grind it fresh - just don't put in too much extra. I did that yesterday (I didn't measure very good Shocked

) and it turned out rather dry. As for dough enhancer, I don't know too much about it. I quit using lecithin in our ww cookies because of the soy.

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but if you can buy the lighter-colored bread pans - do! I have the dark ones (that's all Walmart had Embarrassed

) and I have to bake them at 325 instead of 350 and really watch them to make sure they don't get too brown.

I'm sure your mom has lots of great tips. If I remember right, she is an expert baker!!

Also, I was wondering if anyone has a good ww sourdough recipe. Perhaps sourdough doesn't work well with ww . . . . I'd love any recipes to try!

Hope you have great success!

Kendra

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2007, 10:33:12 PM » by negeland

Just don't add too much flour. That is the easiest thing to accidentally do. Don't get too hung up on whatever measurement the recipe calls for - just learn to judge the dough each time. If you compare fresh wheat bread to kneading "regular fours" by hand the dough looks much "wetter" the amount of flour I add varies by several cups each time. Just grind a bunch and quit while you're ahead. Don't keep adding flour until it looks like white bread dough. It will be too dense. I want my bread to be light and fluffy. When I plop the dough out of the bowl I have to do it onto an oiled surface and handle it with oiled hands or it would be too moist/sticky to handle. BTW if the dough should feel too stiff you might want to change direction and make a bunch of soft pretzels, stuffed bread, pizzas or calzones. It's always a good save at my house.

I don't think adding extra gluten would be a good sub for dough conditioner. I would think that could dry the bread out and make the crumb too loose. I do like the shelf life extension that conditioners give. Maybe you could add an egg yolk or two? That said I don't consistently add conditioner or gluten. They are nice and make the process more fool proof.

I was teaching a "young mom" (ya know - why does she need to say that? Tongue

) how to make bread the other day and she decided to start with adding both gluten and conditioner and then as she gets the hang of it and has sold her family on her bread she's going to wean them out of it. We were afraid if it turns out not fluffy and light her family might rebel.

I just recently bought some new one pound bread pans that make the perfect sized loaf for sandwiches and the toaster. If you get pans that are too big it takes longer to rise and it can over rise, too.

Let us know how it goes!

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2007, 02:07:46 PM » by savedbygrace

Quote from: westernmama on April 17, 2007, 08:43:16 PM

Quote from: hsink on April 17, 2007, 06:59:41 PM

Yeah, my dh just ordered me a Nutrimill and Bosch mixer. They should be here in a couple of days

That's great, Holly! I envy you and your nutrimill. Tongue

I have been using my kitchen aid blender to grind the wheat. It works great! It quickly comes out powdery soft. Much less expensive then a grain grinder too. Does anyone else do this and is there any reason I should not?

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2007, 02:59:07 PM » by hsink

Quote

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but if you can buy the lighter-colored bread pans - do! I have the dark ones (that's all Walmart had Embarrassed) and I have to bake them at 325 instead of 350 and really watch them to make sure they don't get too brown

Good point. I just have small loaf pans right now so I will stick to those for now since that is what I have. I think that dark coatings make baking much more challenging...I have sometimes intentionally gotten people cookie sheets from a kitchen supply store in town because I know that they will have likely have trouble with all the dark ones that are so popular right now.
About what size is a 1 lb. loaf pan? I guess I am just used to having small slices and I make dh 2 sandwiches if he wants...

Quote

I have no idea. My blender barely works so we went with the bosch mixer and blender combo. We didn't have any way to improvise and grind wheat so since we got a very generous tax return he ordered the Nutrimill. I think that someone has mentioned this before...maybe in the Wheat/Wheat Grinders thread? Huh

Sorry I don't remember....

Okay I am starting to feel overwhelmed with options...I am ready to be able to try a recipe and see how it works.....waiting, waiting....

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2007, 03:20:44 PM » by 4myhoonie

Quote from: hsink on April 18, 2007, 02:59:07 PM

Quote

Sorry I don't remember....

Okay I am starting to feel overwhelmed with options...I am ready to be able to try a recipe and see how it works.....waiting, waiting....

if you are making small loaves you probably have 1 1/2 lb. pans. mine are. 1 lb. is VERY small. (like a mini loaf i think) mine are dark too, and they are good quality norpro pans. i always thought it was my oven that was too hot! i have to bake mine @ 325 too. also, putting a pizza stone on the bottom rack of the oven really helps to even out the heat. are you waiting for the nutrimill to arrive?

i dont' think it matters how you get the flour as long as it's powdery soft and making good bread.

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2007, 03:50:01 PM » by hsink

What a good idea about the pizza stone.
Yes I am waiting for my Nutrimill but that will be here tomorrow so I guess I am really waiting on my wheat. Two weeks til the coop orders...three weeks til I will have it. That is if I don't go hunting it down somewhere else Grin

Anyone else have any bread making advice??? PLEASE!!! I have been finding several threads here and am so glad for all the info online...now to sort through it all and get my feet wet Roll Eyes

Thanks,
Holly

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2007, 06:01:21 PM » by westernmama

Quote from: hsink on April 18, 2007, 03:50:01 PM

Hee, hee! Wanna guess where I get my wheat? Right here in Bonners Ferry at our local, small-town grocery store. Shocked

Sounds crazy, I know. Coming from back east we had to drive 1 1/2 hours to get our wheat berries. I wonder if it's because we are so close to Montana wheat country - or maybe it's because alot of these mountain hillbillies (like us Wink

) grind their own wheat. We can get 25 lbs for less than $10. It is the Montana brand of red spring wheat or white spring wheat. Now that should make you jealous!!!

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2007, 06:09:54 PM » by hsink

Okay so do you want new neighbors? I was thinking that I will pay a high price if my lack of patience gets the better of me...especially since Nathan is ready to see what it tastes like...he's always up for food Grin

I am thinking that the coop I found (they order from azure standard) is possibly the only one around???

Holly

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2007, 06:39:06 PM » by petrimama

I also use the pizza stone method. In addition, I put a tray of water on the bottom shelf of the oven to keep the oven air damp. It really helps keep my bread moist. ~L

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2007, 08:18:18 PM » by mexmarr

Quote from: westernmama on April 18, 2007, 06:01:21 PM

. We can get 25 lbs for less than $10. It is the Montana brand of red spring wheat or white spring wheat. Now that should make you jealous!!!

I'm not the least bit jelous. LOL! Grin

I get mine free. Wink

My FIL happens to be a wheat farmer!

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2007, 10:33:04 PM » by hsink

Quote

I'm not the least bit jelous. LOL! Grin I get mine free. Wink My FIL happens to be a wheat farmer!

Okay so I will change my mind I don't want to be wersternmama's neighbor anymore...maybe one of my boys could marry your daughters and we could get free wheat also Roll Eyes

Oh yeah, and could I get about a 20 year advance on that free wheat...ds #1 and #2 aren't marrying age yet Shocked

Hope all is well with you mexmarr! We are praying in CA!

Holly

« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 09:37:28 AM by hsink »
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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2007, 11:50:47 AM » by 4myhoonie

Quote from: AgainstTheGrain on October 12, 2006, 10:34:45 PM

I'v been baking with freshly milled flour for over 3 years and it is a completely different animal to work with and doesn't really substitute in recipes Undecided

Happy Baking!! Grin

i'm wanting to hear from those who have used this recipe. it is excellent and very soft, but she uses longer pans than i have, and i have tried making 5 loaves (short) instead but they just aren't rising very well. they didn't fill up the pans. they were not firm, & when i sliced them kinda holey. so if you have made it, what size pans did you use and how long did it have to rise? did your loaves turn out good? soft, but not holey? also, i seem to always have trouble with my shaping process. after i've slammed it like she says, it's very wrinkled. any tips?

also, has anyone tried it with less yeast?

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2007, 12:15:14 PM » by 4myhoonie

Quote from: peace4all on May 24, 2007, 12:09:47 PM

We use this recipe, but I modified it a little, not the ingredients - but the steps.

These are the things I have changed and my bread is looking, tasting great -

* I add my yeast last, I do not mix it with everything else at the beginning - so after doing the other dry ingredients I add the yeast last, then mix and sponge.

* I only let mine sit and sponge for 10 mins

* after adding the last of your flours I mix/knead for only 3 minutes, then turn it out on my buttered counter and slam the WHOLE thing seven times, then divide it, then slam each smaller loaf seven times and put into 8 " pans - and I get 6 loaves.

oh, and I let mine rise in a 170 degree oven for 20 mins - then bake at 350 for 20 mins.

HTH

ok, i will try it your way. i would like to know, when you rise it, then switch it from 170 to 350 does your oven go to Preheat? do you have any trouble doing that? i used to do it that way, but it would get too done on the outside. after slamming the loaves are they flat and wrinkly? then how do you get them shaped into loaves? thanks for your help! i really want this to work, it's great sandwich bread, if i could get them to be bigger.

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Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2007, 12:36:12 PM » by AgainstTheGrain

Quote from: 4myhoonie on May 24, 2007, 11:50:47 AM

also, has anyone tried it with less yeast?

Yep! I have! Takes longer to rise, and I'm just impatient Undecided

Plus when I bake I usually do 3-4 batches (12-16 loaves) so I need the rise time to be fairly quick. Do you have Kitchen Specialy's cook book? She the gal that's at the homeschooling convention each year. Those recipes are similar, less yeast and she uses an 8" pan.

Do you want to come over sometime and we'll bake together?!?

OK so I probably should have PM'd this - Oh! well too late Wink

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Vanessa in Iowa
Mom to 5 boys and 1 baby girl ages Newborn to 12

Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2007, 12:31:08 AM » by AgainstTheGrain

Quote from: peace4all on May 24, 2007, 01:43:51 PM

Is that the Shelly's Bread lady?

Yep! it sure is! Are you from around here?

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Vanessa in Iowa
Mom to 5 boys and 1 baby girl ages Newborn to 12

Re: Whole Wheat Bread Problems
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2007, 11:36:51 AM » by HeyMom

Yes, I am

I have the shellys breads book and learned so much from it - plus went to her basic and advanced classes at the HSing convention the last two years. Grin

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